Payment system (pay2win?)

[DeletedUser672]

First, let me say I played tribalwars 1 since world 8 and have an EXTREME passion for the game. I understand the need to make a profit, but some of these items are too powerful. If they make it into the final version of the game I won't bother playing. What was so great about TW1 (when I played) was that the premium features were balanced. They made things much easier, but everything you could accomplish with premium you could accomplish without it. (Yes I purchased premium)

Specific purchasable benefits I feel give far too great an advantage are:
1. Grandmaster (If this makes it into the final version I'm done, period.)
2. Build building instantly... pay to reduce the build time? I guess, but build instantly? Way over-powered, seriously, what are you thinking?
3. Ranger (Part of the greatness of tribal wars was the risk taking when making a big attack)
4. Resource income boosts (While not completely game-breaking, they offer a substantial advantage, tone it down to a 10-15% increase and I won't complain)

 

[DeletedUser260]

First, let me say I played tribalwars 1 since world 8 and have an EXTREME passion for the game. I understand the need to make a profit, but some of these items are too powerful. If they make it into the final version of the game I won't bother playing. What was so great about TW1 (when I played) was that the premium features were balanced. They made things much easier, but everything you could accomplish with premium you could accomplish without it. (Yes I purchased premium)

Specific purchasable benefits I feel give far too great an advantage are:
1. Grandmaster (If this makes it into the final version I'm done, period.)
2. Build building instantly... pay to reduce the build time? I guess, but build instantly? Way over-powered, seriously, what are you thinking?
3. Ranger (Part of the greatness of tribal wars was the risk taking when making a big attack)
4. Resource income boosts (While not completely game-breaking, they offer a substantial advantage, tone it down to a 10-15% increase and I won't complain)

1. Grandmaster is not actually that bad. Have you used it, or even seen how much it does? It adds very, very little to the strength of your attack. It's basically a waste of money unless you buy a LOT of them, and then it's an even bigger waste of money. I can understand where you're coming from, but when you look at the way it was balanced, it's actually not nearly as useful an item as it sounds.

2. Agree on this. It should be more expensive or not do as much. Either double the cost, or only have it remove half the building time, and then a second activation would insta-complete. I recognize this game is trying to make there be lots of things to do, all of them fairly cheap. However, this is too game-breaking to make cheap. Oh hey look, level 20 wall out of nowhere! You thought I was farmlocked? Guess again! That endgame scenario, with kings? Feed all your res to one village, insta-complete every level, you win in a day or two. Is that unbalanced? Yeah, and it should (at very least) cost more.

3. The Ranger, for me right now, is one of the game-breakers. That, the berserker, and the provinces, all need massive rebalancing or straight-up removal from the game. They are all too powerful.

4. I disagree. I think these are fine. They need something that many players will buy occasionally in place of a premium account. This fits the bill. I'm sure it does somewhat mess with the balance of the game - all of these items do, really - but I don't think it's particularly OP compared to the others. Plus, with the current boost amount, it's possible to use it strategically to resolve resource imbalances. A lower boost amount might make it harder to do that.

 

[DeletedUser104]

I think that the fact that you can reduce Building times and building costs are the biggest problem.

Since the HQ takes so long to build you can really get a unfair advantage if you speed this process up with the PA features.
This leeds to a person who has 2 villages when others are still not done building their HQ to level 20.

All other Features are a little bit anoying (for example: slow army to nobelman ) but they wil not be the big game changing items, i belive that the person who pays most money at the begining in form of building time reduction etc. will later have such a big advantage that you cant even win against him when you use your +10% attack bonus.

But thats just my oppinion after testing some of the PA features.

MFG
Bash

 

[DeletedUser114]

Theese advantages can be used once per level. And the most important is that they are quite cheap. So you buy premium by mobile, that's quite enough for this, than you can use it several times. This function can be found in the most browser games.

 

[DeletedUser837]

Does anyone know if these p2w features are embedded into the game or is there the option for Innogames to turn them off? For example in TW1 they've been doing one p2w world followed by a non-p2w world. Is this a model that can be used in TW2? Or will all worlds have these p2w features activated? Thanks to anyone who can help with this.

 

[DeletedUser260]

There is no monetization in the game other than these microtransactions, and therefore I highly doubt that there will be worlds without them.

 

[DeletedUser895]

I was actually quite shocked to see this kind of nonsence in TW2... I understand that they want to make money but there are better ways to do it. Making a p2w game wont attrack many players. I also don't see how this could turn out good. Let's say your neighbour has a lot of money to spend on games like this. He could practicly rush a noble and take your village. They really should rethink the whole "pay to finish construction" thing.

 

[DeletedUser896]

Come on guys, this is the definition of pay 2 win. You pay money to gain advantage over other players. Pay LOTS of money to gain a BIG advantage over other players.

Inno has come a long way since TW1 in their business model. How do you think Grepolis as little freemium web browser based game could generate so much income that they can run regular ads on TV? (hint: it's not because it's fun).

Yes, Inno as a company MUST make money. But how MUCH money must they make? Enough to fuel a multimillion dollar ad campaign? TW1 clearly did not crumble from lack of funds. Maybe it didnt make them millionaires, but its still the most fun Ive ever had with a web based game. They are sacrificing game quality to fund their greed. Hey, it's their game, they can do what they want with it. But I'm not going to play it.

But congrats to Inno. They are about to make a lot of money.

 

[DeletedUser896]

Making a p2w game wont attrack many players. I also don't see how this could turn out good.

They don't need many players. They need paying players. The kind of players with the lack of self control or the disposable income to spend thousands on the quick boosts they need to win. You are right that it won't be good. But the paying player doesnt care about a quality made balanced game. They just want to win.

 

[DeletedUser831]

Come on guys, this is the definition of pay 2 win. You pay money to gain advantage over other players. Pay LOTS of money to gain a BIG advantage over other players.

Yes, Inno as a company MUST make money. But how MUCH money must they make? Enough to fuel a multimillion dollar ad campaign? TW1 clearly did not crumble from lack of funds. Maybe it didnt make them millionaires, but its still the most fun Ive ever had with a web based game. They are sacrificing game quality to fund their greed. Hey, it's their game, they can do what they want with it. But I'm not going to play it.

But congrats to Inno. They are about to make a lot of money.

Firstly, TW1 was exceptionally hard to play once you got to the late game. Managing a tonne of villages became incredibly tedious without a premium account (and scripts) to speed up the process. Strictly speaking, it wasn't pay to win, but the fact I didn't have a premium account was hugely influential in why I quit the earlier worlds I played after I started stacking up villages. A lot of the advantages that you got with a premium in TW1 are integrated into TW2, which is much better.

Secondly, I don't think that TW2 is pay to win. Sure some of the features may not be entirely balanced yet, but that is what the beta is for right? There remains a skill and decision making component to the game that you cannot buy. The resource boosts are useful - I used the wood and the iron I got from the quests, but the ALL the resources I get from the timber camps etc pales in comparison to the resources I make from farming. And it doesn't matter how much money I spend, I'm still going to lose if I can't send a noble train properly (I'm assuming we still do that, I haven't got there yet ).

I'm not saying that buying the stuff won't be useful, and if I felt the need I'd be quite happy to spend some of my money, but I think to say the game is pay to win is somewhat disproportionate.
Oh and by the way, I would just like to point out that making money is pretty much what business is about - they have shareholders to please - so I really don't see why you are so surprised by Inno's 'greed' as you put it.

 

[DeletedUser896]

Firstly, TW1 was exceptionally hard to play once you got to the late game. Managing a tonne of villages became incredibly tedious without a premium account (and scripts) to speed up the process. Strictly speaking, it wasn't pay to win...

I understand this better than most. I had a thread in which I fully outlined that problem, and offered up numerous possible solutions. A forum moderator (technically Inno staff) argued with me for pages and pages, and fellow players occasionally popped in to agree with me for the most part. If you did buy premium you'd see that the game continues to spiral out of control and not even the premium features allowed you to manage it.

So agreed, yes that was a major problem with the game. But no game is perfect (except for Star Fox 64, which is another conversation). And premium in TW1 was not really even close to pay to win. It didnt make your offense hit harder. It didnt make your generators pump faster.

Secondly, I don't think that TW2 is pay to win. Sure some of the features may not be entirely balanced yet, but that is what the beta is for right? I'm not saying that buying the stuff won't be useful, and if I felt the need I'd be quite happy to spend some of my money...

What you are talking about is to what degree the game is pay to win. Not whether it is. A multiplayer game that allows you to purchase a statistical raw advantage over others can never be balanced.

Oh and by the way, I would just like to point out that making money is pretty much what business is about - they have shareholders to please - so I really don't see why you are so surprised by Inno's 'greed' as you put it.

Do they have shareholders? Are they a publicly traded company that I could buy stock in? Or maybe you just mean the couple of guy(s) who own the company. Regardless, I truly love this argument, as I see it all the time. What's the difference between EA and CD Project Red (makers of The Witcher series), or the difference between King and Turtle Rock Studios?

If you are unfamiliar with them, I'll tell you. Two of them have zero shame and pull every underhanded thing they can to make every dollar they can. Two of them hold themselves with integrity, love their players, and are loved by their players. All four of them make enough money to pay their employees and stay in business.

I think Inno made the choice of the kind of company they wanted to be with the likes of Grepolis, and its unfortunate that old faithful TW1 players will see their game's name run through the mud like this.

 

[DeletedUser908]

Yesterday, I've received my Beta-Key (thanks for that ^^) and of course I've started to play immediately. Summarizing, everything looks nice, the game mechanics are (on the first look) the same, the real innovation is missing until now but, well, Tribal Wars was a success story, why shouldn't TW2 be another one? Today, I've figured out why this probably won't be the case...together with the actual innovation: the shop.

Ok, typical advantages like increased resource production are fine and can be compensated by activity to some extend. Increased strength of an attacking army might be compensated by good tribes. But honestly, mocking different units by increasing/reducing the army speed? Let an army return unharmed if the fight would be a full defeat? Please, tell me you're kidding or just doing some crazy experiments.

Those saying that this has not the potential of pay2win are not willing or not able to see the implications of these purchasable advantages. Those saying that nobody is willing to pay for these advantages should take a look at "The West", where such "Micropayments" are quite popular. For some they are even getting to "Macropayments" in the order of hundreds of euros per month just to get a single item. However, in "The West" there is no way to end the game for other player, like in TW2. In TW2 I guess an investment of 500€ would end the game for many neighbours quite fast (Snob fake, LKav fake, Unharmed attacks, Healing, increased attack power...) . So why should anybody be willing to invest (only) time as long as he/she is not willing to invest at least the same 500€? At the end, the biggest wallet wins if someone brings his wallet willingly into play...and this will happen, there are a lot of people which are too stupid or too rich to spend there money elsewhere.

I know, it's business...but for some stupid reasons I was hoping that its influence might be not that huge. It's a pitty.

 

[DeletedUser80]

Hey folks,
sorry but I could not understand your commotion. Look at the brand lead companies and you´ll see, that ALL of them use micropayments. That is meanwhile a part and parcel of the market. Your comparisons are the same as if I would say "Why the mobile phone-companies did not remove the appstore (playstore, etc.) because all the apps need to much battery?"... Earlier everything was better. Nonsense.

 

[DeletedUser908]

I (as I can only speak for myself) am neither especially excited nor did I say that everything was better in the past. TW2 is fine as it is. It will be fun for some people (not for me and not for convinced Tribal Wars players, but for some others) and these people will probably create profit to some extend. But exactly because TW2 is based on Tribal Wars and its mechanics, winning means that somebody else has to lose. Not like in other games (The West, Forge of Empires etc.), there is nothing to lose but reputation.

But why should I spend my time in a game that somebody else will win just because of money? But well...maybe you're right and this is just nonsense. I'll leave for the moment playing Sevenlands...uhm...Kartuga...no...Lagoonia...wait...The West. See you there. ;-)

 

[DeletedUser831]

Ok, typical advantages like increased resource production are fine and can be compensated by activity to some extend. Increased strength of an attacking army might be compensated by good tribes. But honestly, mocking different units by increasing/reducing the army speed? Let an army return unharmed if the fight would be a full defeat? Please, tell me you're kidding or just doing some crazy experiments.

As I said increased resource production is total blown out of the water by competent farming. The Grandmaster only increases attack strength by 10% - when you factor in belief and luck, it isn't really that big a difference. It effectively skews the lucks towards a -15 to +35 direction. Has the potential to make a difference, but it isn't game killing.
The ranger is useful in the early game, but to be honest, losing full nukes time against an effectively supported wasn't exactly uncommon in TW1. Given the current province system, the fight is heavily skewed towards the defender.
I have sympathy with you in regards to the tactician. The potential for all defensive forces move at Lcav speed should make defensive armies rather 1 dimensional. It does obsolete the heavy cav-spear combination, which I was rather fond of. However, it is also the one I'm most excited about, so swings and roundabouts.

Those saying that this has not the potential of pay2win are not willing or not able to see the implications of these purchasable advantages. Those saying that nobody is willing to pay for these advantages should take a look at "The West", where such "Micropayments" are quite popular. For some they are even getting to "Macropayments" in the order of hundreds of euros per month just to get a single item. However, in "The West" there is no way to end the game for other player, like in TW2. In TW2 I guess an investment of 500€ would end the game for many neighbours quite fast (Snob fake, LKav fake, Unharmed attacks, Healing, increased attack power...) . So why should anybody be willing to invest (only) time as long as he/she is not willing to invest at least the same 500€? At the end, the biggest wallet wins if someone brings his wallet willingly into play...and this will happen, there are a lot of people which are too stupid or too rich to spend there money elsewhere.

This is a massive exaggeration. End the game for many neighbours quite fast? Nonsense. Lack I checked, you can't just go and buy 1000 axes. Recruitment is slower now since you can only recruit from one place. You know what would 'end' the game for a lot of neighbours? Effective farming.
Furthermore, in the beginning, you can get a large amount of items free via the quests. On TW1 I never spent money on a world until I was committed to it. I can do the same here, as I do not really need to be spending stacks of cash immediately. If my neighbour spends £500 on stuff immediately, good for him, but it doesn't mean that I should start over.

Both you and Veritas seem to labouring under the false conclusion that TW1 was not pay to win. How many of the guys who won were not using premium account I wonder?

Do they have shareholders? Are they a publicly traded company that I could buy stock in? Or maybe you just mean the couple of guy(s) who own the company. Regardless, I truly love this argument, as I see it all the time. What's the difference between EA and CD Project Red (makers of The Witcher series), or the difference between King and Turtle Rock Studios?

Well, the guys who own the company make the decisions, and they want to make money. However, I did mean to say stakeholders, of which you and me are one, but it is in all the stakeholders interests that the company makes money.

 

[DeletedUser260]

But why should I spend my time in a game that somebody else will win just because of money?

The winning players, in the end, will be those with determination and teamwork. Money makes a slight tactical difference, but not a strategic difference. That's how it's worked in TW1, that's how it will continue to work in TW2.

I'll word it a bit more strongly: Calling these microtransactions "pay to win", is completely and utterly ridiculous. The winning tribe is not the one who pays the most. The winning tribe is the one who plays the most, plays the hardest, and works together the best. You can't buy those things. You can't even buy troops. To say that the winners will be those that pay the most displays a lack of understanding of how TribalWars worlds have always played out.

 

[DeletedUser886]

It doesn't make sense to compare "bad team with money" vs "good team without money". Compare teams on same level. The "rich" Team, e.g. spending 500€/month has in sum an advantage vs an other team on same skill level. i think the main problem is that you can pay unlimited more and more and more.. if you have more villages and armys you can buy for every village and army special features.. when you are rich. i think a system of payed advantages that are limited per month (30- 50 euro or something) would be enough and fair for all. this would help to assure the players that you not have to spend all your money to get maximum advantage.
And yes, in TW1 every top player had a premium account. And that was ok because it's limited to an comprehensible amount that everybody that get bigger have to pay to play comfortable. And Innogames didn't crashed from this system, or?

 

[DeletedUser831]

It doesn't make sense to compare "bad team with money" vs "good team without money". Compare teams on same level. The "rich" Team, e.g. spending 500€/month has in sum an advantage vs an other team on same skill level. i think the main problem is that you can pay unlimited more and more and more.. if you have more villages and armys you can buy for every village and army special features.. when you are rich. i think a system of payed advantages that are limited per month (30- 50 euro or something) would be enough and fair for all. this would help to assure the players that you not have to spend all your money to get maximum advantage.
And yes, in TW1 every top player had a premium account. And that was ok because it's limited to an comprehensible amount that everybody that get bigger have to pay to play comfortable. And Innogames didn't crashed from this system, or?

I think we can all agree that tribes win worlds. The size of a tribe will vary, but if we take a typical world, I'd imagine at some point we'd get a series of tribes dominant in certain parts of the world fighting it out. What I find extremely unlikely is that you are going to get a tribe with players who all buy stuff and another with no players who buy stuff. The concept that tribes will be composed of paying and non-paying players, right now, is utterly ridiculous.

What you can buy is a technical advantage, a tactical advantage. Which is great. But you are still not going to achieve anything without superior strategy. The tactical advantage cannot overcome strategical superiority in the long run. The way things work out, you are never ever going to get a scenario where 2 sides are absolutely equal. It simply isn't going to happen. Therefore, the better team will win, regardless, especially when you factor in my first point.

 

[DeletedUser924]

One major problem with the OP is that you are implying you could win TW 1 without premium? How did you manage 22 million point accounts with no PP? Don't get me wrong i spent very little in that game but i could only get to 8 million before i had to have PP and all 4 of my wins were with accounts much over 8 mill! That being said there is the same sponsor pay program that TW had as well so o the offers sure they are annoying but i know many players who used them for their only source of income for PP.

now my biggest issue is that this is a game and you seem to think the only win is to win the world. If you play this game for 3 years and have fun the whole time then what have you relly lost? Being in the top tribe wins the prize but as long as you enjoyed your time have you not gotten out exactly what you would expect from any game? I don't think anyone here is going to make a living of this game its just to pass the time and have fun not go for broke!

 

[DeletedUser262]

Hi, I like the payment systems in games because of the departure of doing live, but it's not so Itten van.Itt the game I took two months to manufacture booster.De when I had to start again in Game of the production was not there boster.No okey .Please remedy the problem, because this is nowhere to be lost to write.Thank you.