DeletedUser1893
Guest
What do people think about defending against sabotage attacks? Do you feel that you are able to stop enough of them or that there is no counter to being sabotaged? Are there any suggestions on how to help with defending against sabotage attacks?
Some examples to discuss. What do you guys feel about spies being able to support other villages? How about sabotages against a village have a 50% maximum chance to succeed? Post and discuss some idea if you feel sabotage is unbalanced.
If you feel sabotage is in a perfect place in terms of attacking and defense please post why. Some ideas to consider. It takes 3 spies to sabotage so excluding travel time that's a sabotage attack every 9 hrs. You give up getting trebuchets and berserkers to get this ability. Please post why you feel sabotage is balanced.
Do you feel sabotage is too weak? Sending 3 spies is a lot and can leave our villages vulnerable to spied. People can stack villages and make them impossible to take so we need increased ability to sabotage and break through that support. Please post what changes you think needs to be done.
Without feedback from the players it is very hard for us to determine the balance of a feature. We need feedback to make changes or keep existing changes.
Some examples to discuss. What do you guys feel about spies being able to support other villages? How about sabotages against a village have a 50% maximum chance to succeed? Post and discuss some idea if you feel sabotage is unbalanced.
If you feel sabotage is in a perfect place in terms of attacking and defense please post why. Some ideas to consider. It takes 3 spies to sabotage so excluding travel time that's a sabotage attack every 9 hrs. You give up getting trebuchets and berserkers to get this ability. Please post why you feel sabotage is balanced.
Do you feel sabotage is too weak? Sending 3 spies is a lot and can leave our villages vulnerable to spied. People can stack villages and make them impossible to take so we need increased ability to sabotage and break through that support. Please post what changes you think needs to be done.
Without feedback from the players it is very hard for us to determine the balance of a feature. We need feedback to make changes or keep existing changes.
DeletedUser924
Guest
Well you say that but i have reports that prove otherwise. I spy villages 1 spy at a time and I get defeated reports first then 3 reports later I get yellow ones and after the 7th its green for sure then my sabotages hits moments after and none have failed. d0z3 if you failed then perhaps you didn't follow my method as described because it does work. I send the spies on buildings rather than troops if that makes a difference. But the fact remains I've not failed one sabotage of the 100s I've sent. it sounds like to me you cleared hi of spies then sent the sabotages and that means he could have rebuilt them its not about when you send its about when they land. And d0z3 it just occurred to me it is possible he was spying a building and they had just returned when you hit with the sabotage. It wouldn't be because he saw it coming but just by chance.Azunai;n28147 said:
Slayan defending by building spies fails miserable. however I've never been hit by a mass sabotage and if i was i would launch spies at all villages of the attack the moment they were built thus killing their spies unless they happened to dodge the attacks by chance since they don't see them coming. If you mass spy the saboteur with 5 spies per village you render them unable to implement the method so the only defense to the sabotage is to spy first and kill their spies before they have rebuilt enough to send them,
The spies supporting other villages has been mentioned on this forum hundreds of times now and most liked it. but it does also prevent the spying of troops and buildings just as much as balance the sabotage feature. I think it unblances another part of the game just to balance this one. Tredbuchets and berserkers are not near as powerful as reduced coin costs and sabotage so most people don't lose anything by going all theives guild.
Stacked villages of inactives is a reason why sabotage is needed. Sending 3 spies when done right is not to expensive. People who use the first three spies may think it is. That is if they use the 3rd 4th and 5th spy. But you don't change the game because someone is using sword nukes and its not getting them anywhere. The best thing for a person to do is send the 4th and 5th spy off somewhere and then send the 1st 2nd and 3rd spy in the sabotage run. That way its rediculously low on resources and the slowest spy s the 3rd which s not as slow as the 12 hours it takes for the 4th spy.
DeletedUser997
Guest
Slayan;n28651 said:
I'm going to react quickly, it suffices to read through the other threads as to see what people say about sabotage. The only one(s) defending sabotage, were also saying it isn't as destructive as people make it sound to be. They also proved not to have been on the receiving end of sabotages done by some1 who knows actually how to do it "properly" and has the numbers to do it destructively.
Sabotage is inballanced beyond belief. One of the top saboteurs (if such ranks were to exist) is without a doubt RustyNail (who also says the feature is unballanced to a flaw). If you want to have a description of his actions?
Take a gigantic flock of locusts (saboteurs) that see a field of crops (target villages) and when they leave a few hours later there's a ravaged field (ruins of what used to be villages)
RustyNail ruins multiple villages in a matter of hours, cripples em in a matter of days, and sets an entire province back weeks and weeks (if not months).
Inballanced doesn't even begin to describe the feature.
A defender is limited by 5 spies of which only the first two have time to rebuild, the others take too long, 5 spies is impossible to have when you're under attack, And it's the only feature that can ravage a village that fast where there is ab-so-lutely no defense possible and no way for a tribe to help it's member, not even when the member is in the core of the tribe, it will get demolished even if the attacker is too far away for attacking with conventional troops ... On worlds with nightbonus, it's not even impacted by that ... so the fact that people could sleep at night isn't limiting the most destructive of all features at all ...
Sabotage back? When the attacker has 120+ sabotage halls, you can't take down his halls fast enough since he can always take new villages with halls or rebuild halls,
It's the only feature that has not a single way to defend yourself or get help.
Worse even:
It is so unballanced that a person who has soldiers in a village under attack is being punished for having them. The first levels to loose by spies are the highest of the random village that is under attack. For a farm lvl30 that's a day to rebuild. If you got troops and loose a level or 2 it will even cripple you because you won't even have the provisions to rebuild, you can only wait for your spies to get killed, train them while your village is being ruined and when it's trained, it will die straight away so you click again.
Queue spies? rediculous, if the first three spies are dead it takes you 12hrs without spies while spy number 4 is being built ... only if you are behind the screen 24/7 to stop queues to rebuild spy nr1 ... if not your are done for
AGAIN
The defender looses buildings that take a day to build (and it'll only take longer the more your HQ get's sabotaged.) and the spies ... they take mere hours to rebuild. When done right you can use 1 village for 2 waves of sabotage attacks a day
...
How unfair is it that you can "stack" (multiple players can band together to start sabotaging the same village at the same time, diminishing the number of failed attempts and augmenting the successes and destructive power of an already overpowered feature) the most destructive, overpowered and cheapest attack for the saboteurs, but for the defender not a single person can aid the victime.
You can help a tribemember with ruining an enemy, but you are powerlesly standing by when you or your fellow tribesman is getting sabotaged ...
The minimum 3 spies per sabotage did help, but it's too easy to work around that limitation since ... you just have either more villages with sabotage halls yourself ... or you ask a friend to help you sabotage.
So from the atackers point of view it's unrestricted.
From the Victim's point of view ... in short ? You're on your own and don't stand a chance.
Suggestions?
- The minimum suggestion would be to either make defending spies also unlimited (taking up farm places for all I care) OR let it be possible for players to send supporting spies or support your own villages with spies or a combination of all.
- Perhaps introduce another unit, some guards or something that when they spot the spy the village is on high allert and defending spies become more succesful when the number of sabotages in a certain time frame reaches a treshold. After a cooldown period, village is back on normal allert until ...
- Perhaps have different spies for sabotage and for defense. make defending spies always build faster and sabotage spies always be slower and more costly (they do ruin costly time-consuming buildings ...)
-
DeletedUser1993
Guest
To add to Nightlord's suggestions, and to repeat what has been suggested by many members
- devs should come up with some sort of a "battle system" for spies. Get rid of that "chance" stuff and it will be easier to defend and also more predictable and reliable. Just like when you have a full defensive line-up in your village you don't rely on chance to defend against, for example, 1000 axemen (yes, there is "luck" there as well, but it alone does not decide the result). If there is a system, under which the outcome of the spy confrontations will be determined, then the feature could be more balanced. Make it harder to kill the home spies, and make it impossible to sabotage a village until the village loses all its home spies (which now is not the case) and the sabotage will lose a lot of its potential. The defender can rely not only on the number of home spies, but also to wall level, or other boosts that
- another option could be to limit the range of the saboteurs, which will reduce the cases of one player being attacked by one whole tribe. There is no clear logic behind this, (I mean, if you can send an army to the other side of the map, then why shouldn't you be able to send a spy there as well) but so what
- devs should come up with some sort of a "battle system" for spies. Get rid of that "chance" stuff and it will be easier to defend and also more predictable and reliable. Just like when you have a full defensive line-up in your village you don't rely on chance to defend against, for example, 1000 axemen (yes, there is "luck" there as well, but it alone does not decide the result). If there is a system, under which the outcome of the spy confrontations will be determined, then the feature could be more balanced. Make it harder to kill the home spies, and make it impossible to sabotage a village until the village loses all its home spies (which now is not the case) and the sabotage will lose a lot of its potential. The defender can rely not only on the number of home spies, but also to wall level, or other boosts that
- another option could be to limit the range of the saboteurs, which will reduce the cases of one player being attacked by one whole tribe. There is no clear logic behind this, (I mean, if you can send an army to the other side of the map, then why shouldn't you be able to send a spy there as well) but so what
Azunai
New Member
our experience
So my tribe and i myself are under sabotage for nearly a month now - non stop
Within a week the target player loses around 80.000 points leaving whole provinces at an average of 2000 point villages , farms at like lvl 20, main building around 18 and mines also at 20
it takes you weeks to regain the farm to lvl 30 to actualy upgrade your mines or any other building.
The attacker is 24 hours (Spy travel time) away and does not even care to send offensive units, they just do it for fun as it costs them nothing at all.
What we tried: counter sabotage them - which did not work at all as the first wave that hit us already killed our spies and halls of orders,
the view villages we could disable were fixed pretty fast.
Offensive troops with catapults to destroy their tavern is impossible as they need 2 days traveling time
If you try to keep buiolding your main building while under attack you even get punished for it - pay high ressources for lvl 28 with 30 hour build time - when finished you get a lvl 17 one or such - jay
The attacking tribe build HoR in each village. all for sabotage and till now they didnt need to even fight a single enemy with tropps, just keeping the sabotage up till players resign and quit TW2 while that players friends watch and know they are next
my suggestions
From what i read, the sabotage feature was designed to break fortresses and provinces in lategame right?
If you consider the fact that you will have at minimum 100 villages, beeing able to destroy 100 levels of buildings per wave - you defnitly break that village- actualy at a very low cost of 3 spys
Now if you change it to 5 spys its harder to abuse this at all states in the game but does not stop you from it.
The best solution i can come up with is: Limit the amount of sabotage attacks a player can send at the same target player. This would allow a tribe to still break into new provinces and fortresses, but would stop them from simply reverting a players progress for month without him even getting warned
sample just by sabotage:
@RustyNail
"make it impossible to sabotage a village until the village loses all its home spies (which now is not the case) and the sabotage will lose a lot of its potential."
this is already the case, sabotage fails at 100% as long as there is 1 defending - doesnt change a thing as that spy dies instantly by the next sabotage ( which fails) but opens up another 30 min timeframe of free success
So my tribe and i myself are under sabotage for nearly a month now - non stop
Within a week the target player loses around 80.000 points leaving whole provinces at an average of 2000 point villages , farms at like lvl 20, main building around 18 and mines also at 20
it takes you weeks to regain the farm to lvl 30 to actualy upgrade your mines or any other building.
The attacker is 24 hours (Spy travel time) away and does not even care to send offensive units, they just do it for fun as it costs them nothing at all.
What we tried: counter sabotage them - which did not work at all as the first wave that hit us already killed our spies and halls of orders,
the view villages we could disable were fixed pretty fast.
Offensive troops with catapults to destroy their tavern is impossible as they need 2 days traveling time
If you try to keep buiolding your main building while under attack you even get punished for it - pay high ressources for lvl 28 with 30 hour build time - when finished you get a lvl 17 one or such - jay
The attacking tribe build HoR in each village. all for sabotage and till now they didnt need to even fight a single enemy with tropps, just keeping the sabotage up till players resign and quit TW2 while that players friends watch and know they are next
my suggestions
From what i read, the sabotage feature was designed to break fortresses and provinces in lategame right?
If you consider the fact that you will have at minimum 100 villages, beeing able to destroy 100 levels of buildings per wave - you defnitly break that village- actualy at a very low cost of 3 spys
Now if you change it to 5 spys its harder to abuse this at all states in the game but does not stop you from it.
The best solution i can come up with is: Limit the amount of sabotage attacks a player can send at the same target player. This would allow a tribe to still break into new provinces and fortresses, but would stop them from simply reverting a players progress for month without him even getting warned
sample just by sabotage:
@RustyNail
"make it impossible to sabotage a village until the village loses all its home spies (which now is not the case) and the sabotage will lose a lot of its potential."
this is already the case, sabotage fails at 100% as long as there is 1 defending - doesnt change a thing as that spy dies instantly by the next sabotage ( which fails) but opens up another 30 min timeframe of free success
DeletedUser1993
Guest
Azunai;n28904 said:
i have many reports from sabotages in my villages which leave alive spies, but are still successful, so no, this is not already the case
DeletedUser1993
Guest
that's definitely not the case on zz2 server
DeletedUser2694
Guest
Nightlord;n28774 said:
+1
Im also on the receiving end of heavy sabotages and its beyond frustating, I dont know who came up with this mechanic on the first place, it was the worst idea implemented on this game since the early days of TW1.
It should be entirely revamped or replaced, it turns an otherwise beaultiful strategy game in some kind of weird "medieval suicide bomber simulator", its just beyond awful, theres no strategy, no defense, no balance, the attack has every possible advantage, and its gets way worse if the attacker has 2 or 3 times the village number of the defender.
Its so awful, so misaligned from the rest of the game that it makes me think it should be totally removed and people who built the "spy orders" should get a free repick while they work on a solution.
Definitely, the only people who defend it are the ones that never were targeted by massive sabotage attacks.
DeletedUser940
Guest
I am sure they are making sabotaging their priority right now due to how broken its been shown to be. on a side note however. In large scale wars although broken it should not be relied apon. LOB vs ZAR war has consisted of LOB sabotaging ZAR and ZAR going.... I give no #$^@s about your sabotages. and ZAR nobling out their players anyways. so it has a draw back of if facing a large tribe while your tribe focuses on sabotaging one player the rest of the tribe is screwing you over because you are following up with actual attacks.
overall i like the idea of the sabotaging feature but as mentioned it must be balanced. i liek the idea of fighting a war on two fronts with a sabotage game and a battling war front. but it will be hard to balance.
overall i like the idea of the sabotaging feature but as mentioned it must be balanced. i liek the idea of fighting a war on two fronts with a sabotage game and a battling war front. but it will be hard to balance.
DeletedUser40
Guest
This is certainly not abandoned - but things have changed and will continue to change.
Just because we don't participate in these feedback thread, we still read them and discuss it's content internally.
Just because we don't participate in these feedback thread, we still read them and discuss it's content internally.
DeletedUser2715
Guest
Hmm... Why not limit the number of sabotages you can do once in a while ? That would check the abuse. Also, make it tough for the bigger player to beat the little ones by a bad morale or something like that.
DeletedUser40
Guest
We are working on more balancing options, but we can not disclose of these yet, as they are not finalized and may change before deployment.
DeletedUser2694
Guest
Glad to hear you are working on it, the sooner the better.
DeletedUser924
Guest
Nightlord;n28774 said:
Note I do not say sabotaging is fair as it stands but you are quick to assumptions like it is defenseless sure it can be frustrating and sue I've never received 200 attacks before. But i do know that if I ever was hit I would launch close to 200 villages of sabotages and another 100 nukes at the attacker. all catting taverns so I think that would do a lot to impede them from trying it again sure I lost one or a few villages from the runs but i will also see to it they lose equal or more than I did. And we can trade punches all day long because I will have several people under me also doing the same to them and any would assist them I their attack. If you want to mass sabotage me and be successful then you had better hit all my villages simultaneously and not leave one survivor or it will back fire on you. Now I have proposed this fix numerous times and it gets nearly ignored every time. and it would even allow a 50 village player to survive a mass sabotage from a 250 village player or an entire tribe. As things stand if there is no spy in the defending village the sabotage is successful. Now what happened to the police who are in the village protecting the workers and non combatants. This is before the time of coffee shops and donuts so they are sitting round there. There are too many things that would go wrong with a spy going in to suicide bomb a building as thats about the only way the damage could be done to the village in that day and era while causing the death of the spy too.
So bearing this in mind the sabotage feature should have a default lose regardless of spies defending or not. Say if no spies are in the village 30% are successful and that leaves 70% where they just die. and this goes down for every spy that is defending. Does that prevent mass sabotaging yes does it make sabotaging useless. well that depends you certainly have to use a lot more to get any kind of results than before but if that is too low then just up the percentages but still allow some to die by default.
Second the biggest need for sabotaging is to lower walls in a stacked village that you can't lower with nukes or it is too costly to do so. Since this is the only real legit reason aside from removing a church or fortress to keep this feature around. why don't e take barracks, HQ, farm, warehouse, and others like this off the table? Then only the important but less damaging buildings can be hit.
- problem the church would have a higher rate of falling. solution assign weighted values to buildings so that the building is random but you have a higher chance of getting the wall than the church.
-benefit now the farm and HQ won't be hit so you won't run into population or time building issues.
Another solution that was proposed. Have a technology where if in a certain time frame it is activated it reverts the damage. of course needs limitations. 25-50 uses per day requires x numbers of spies to activate or x level of tavern. something to prevent this from being if you are online then no sabotage works and if you are offline you are SOL. We also don't want this ability to push people to feel like they have to neglect their lives and work or other issues just to be succesfull in this game.
DeletedUser2694
Guest
Two patches out and still no nerf to sabotage, unbeliveable...