Forwarded Sabotage feature late game

DeletedUser940

Guest
So Currently beta world 2 or expertus has started a major battle between the top two tribes. now one of the tribes uses mass sabotage as a tactic and i dont blame them because it is still a bit broken. to show you what is wrong i would like to point out one thing. you can sabotage a single target as a tribe but you cant defend against sabotage as a tribe. you can only retaliate. this makes it hard on that person being sabotaged because there is nothing they can do but try to build spies up to reduce the amount of things sabotaged. this game is build around tribes working together but this mechanic doesnt allow a tribe to defend its members together. no i know there have been other threads about this subject but i wanted to bring up some possible solutions

1. making it so spies can support other villages. this would allow a tribe to stack a member with spies that is being sabotaged and at the same time disable them from counter sabotaging them. so its a choice. do you sabotage back? or defend your tribe member from sabotages?

2. a tribe member of mine said to make it so if defending spies is greater than or equal to attacking spies (or sabotage spies) then you lose no defending spies.now this one could use some adjustment. i would say if it is greater than the amount of spies then you lose none but say you have 5 spies and they use 5 spies on you then there would be a possibility of you losing one- two spies... but for me i think this strengthens the defender to much. but in late game it might come up with the same problem as i have now. they just use 4 waves of 5 spies to knock your spies down then sabotage for days.

3. make it so 1 spy cant kill 2 spies... i had 5 spies in my village and they got killed by two waves of 1 spy... i sat there going seriously... what is the point of having a lvl 15 tavern and 5 spies if that happens.

anyways i like the first solution the most as if you have 10 spies in a village it would make it impossible for the enemy to sabotage so they would have to keep switching targets. other than that i like the sabotage aspect of this game it just needs some balancing.
 

DeletedUser2224

Guest
Yeah i m Agree
First i like the Idea of Sabotage in TW2 , They Make This Great Innovation , its a Good Weapon
But This Weapon Turn The Game Boring when the Wrong People Take it , Some People Use it 100% to win a War , Its Called Tribal WAR Not Tribal SABOTAGE ,

i have another Suggestion ,

4 ) You can Make that evry player if he want to Use Sabotage he Need to Collect ressource ( 300 K 300 K 300 k ) or Do somthing Like Mint Coins , If he want to Avoid The war To Get Attack a big ennemy .

5) To Make a limite of Sabotage , The Player Can't get + 10 sabotaged at Max per day

6) if The Sabotage Spies Get Killed they can't rebuild Them after 24-48 , he need To wait

7) Or make another Unit You Can build it in the Hall of Order , Her mission is Spying , and the fight normaly , They Cant Be Kiilled by Another Type of Troops . They fight Just between Them .

_____________________________________________________________________

The Game Goes So Baad when you Got +400 Sabotage Per Day , and Who Knows maybe in the Futur people Can Get +1,000,000 Sabotage Per Day
Its Called Tribal War , Not Tribal Sabotage
 

DeletedUser80

Guest
We know, that the sabotage feature isn't perfect right now. Despite all that it hasn't a high priority. We'll forward your ideas to our devs, but I can't promise you, that they will change something in the near future. I don't know the road map of TW2. Further opinions are nevertheless welcome.
 

DeletedUser940

Guest
no worries we are hear to beta test. just sabotage is being heavily used right now and i due have to say i drains the fun out of the game when the enemy only sabotages until they sabotage a church.
 

DeletedUser940

Guest
they can sabotage church trust me i know they sabotaged mine over and over. you cannot sabotage chapel.
 

DeletedUser940

Guest
some other things i though about recently. you can make it so the at a lvl 15 tavern you can support other tribe members with spies to defend them from enemy sabotage attempts. 10 spies being alot harder to get through then 5. and you can have it max out at 15 spies defending a village. or not depending on what you think is best. and then make a way to speed up production of spies using your coin system. just for those times of war when those sabotage attempts get real annoying and that 1 day wait is killing you
 

gencyde1

New Member
I personally proposed a similar idea waaayy back in the day (months ago I think) - I think they really are thinking of using that level 15 tavern as a room for perks concerning sabotage defending, but as you may know now - they really aren't putting it as a "priority" atm. Apparently, capping it to 3-spy sabotage should slow down the Sabotage hype and would at least mitigate it's overpowered effectiveness. It is still essentially a "the bigger guys will trample the smaller ones".

Possible level 15 tavern perks:
  • Scale the spies so that it will be defending a lot better (1 defending spy = 3 attacking spies or something)
  • Enable spy supports from yourself and someone else (No limit; would be most useful when thousands of spies would be dropping on you like flies)
  • Coin system as seecretlare mentioned (You like money right? I think you can milk this one out - since the p2w system is definitely a priority list), I mean just imagine if hundreds of spies drop down on you and is loaded with RL money, spend maybe 100 bucks and you will be able kill off those waves of spies - for a price. Then the attackers can just be like, "well let's give it another 8 hrs of production and maybe around 15-20 hrs of travelling and we can all try again". Then repeat. That's another 100 bucks in just over 1 day.
 

DeletedUser940

Guest
another point is that even with a tribe vs another large tribe. sabotage is a very tribe vs one target thing. you can only defend against spies by yours self. and its very unbalanced so allowing a tribe to help defend would be much better use and balance it out
 

DeletedUser2507

Guest
Please only don't make this game p2w because it can kill every game. Find another way to balance sabotage feature.
 

DeletedUser940

Guest
buying to speed up spies isnt that much of a pay to win. that just helps with defending and if the enemy is persistent enough you would be spending thousands of dollars just to block their spies. so it isnt to much of a pay to win. the main fix would be my number 1 that allows for you to defend others with your spies when you have a lvl 15 tavern
 

DeletedUser924

Guest
One problem with suggestion 1. that wouldn't just stop sabotage but a stack of spies would make it impossible to get any report. You could put 25 spies in a village sure i can't sabotage you but now i can't even get a report on buildings. In the previous game scouts could be stacked but you could also build a village with 10K scouts. here we can only get 5 spies and honestly who does that? a massive waste of resources it is. So most get 3 or 4. which now means people can only sabotage once per village and then its another day to wait. A great improvement I would say. But if we could support then no one would ever be able to use spies again and thus building them would be a waste of time. Perhaps get some counter sabotage feature but don't allow the ability to stack if the number recruitable is so limited. As for your third point i think that was your best suggestion because it doesn't unbalance the game like the others do. The ratios need to be changed so that sabotage has a much lower chance of success and so that 1 spy going up against 4 dies without so much as a scratch on the defendors because honestly how many people enter a 1 v 4 fight and are able to take down any number of the enemy before falling?
 

DeletedUser940

Guest
just because you have a stack of 25 spies doesn't mean its impossible to spy. If you were in my position you would realize this. i often see 1 spy kill 2 spies in my village. so in my position right now i am being spied/sabotaged at least 200-500 times a day. hell one of my villages went from 10k points to 200 due to all the sabotages. so due to all this in late game it is easy to get past 25 spies if you are determined enough, with the current functions.

now your complaint is valid for early game but hence why i suggested making it the lvl 15 tavern requirement so stacking spies would be hard.

to tell you how 3 would still allow for a broken sabotage system. say i had 5 spies in every village. well LOB has 5 spies in every village at the start of the war, so i get a few spy reports of 5 spies killing 1 spy or so out of my village then another then another. okay well not i dont have 5 spies and now i have non. next 25 sabotages come through and my village is now on a down hill decline and i most likely wont get 5 spies ever again in that village.

same thing happens with 25 spies stack in my village. first 3 waves kills 6 spies then 4 more waves kills 8 more then the sabotages start landing and only 10 get through vs 25. i have now received a lot less damage and my tribe can now help me out. well eventually the enemy realizes my villages are stacked with spies so they aim to take out another of my tribe ates with sabotage and now we have to switch the location of our spies to defend the next sabotage attempts. it is a lot more tribe oriented tactics vs me defending, by myself, against a tribe.
 

DeletedUser924

Guest
I feel a stack would prevent spying from being effective which is why i think the best method is to change the success rate. If sabotage was given less than 10% chance of working and if 3 spies verse 4 spies had less than 100% chance to kill 1 that would be more than enough in my opinion. knew when they first made the change it would still be broken but at least it costs the attackers more. and takes more time for them to resend the run. I still think we need a countermeasure. A chance device that is activated and has a specified chance of success it which the attempt would be thwarted and resend any damage done by that attempt. This combined with rebuilding spies would likely balance the technique or at least be a step forward. keep in mind with a stacking ability 25 wouldn't be the end of where a stack could go. Right now if i stacked my village i would have the ability to have 384 spies in there. Even with an entire tribe you'd have no chance of a report on that one. of course i wouldn't devote all my spies on a single village like that. But i would split it up in thirds and then use my cats to destroy the taverns of those that attacked me. Now that was just with my 3 spies per village but i could build 4 or even 5 if i ever so desired.
 

DeletedUser940

Guest
i think you are missing something big here. There is something im currently experiencing that you arent which involves mid to late game tactics.

to set it up for you, LOB has sabotage villages as probably 90% of their villages. there is no catapulting their taverns down. there is just to many villages i would have to take down. they have thousands of sabotage villages as a tribe. and even if i had 5 spies in one village it would be me vs a whole tribe when it comes to the sabotage and spieing game. it is impossible for me to defend my self against their sabotage attempts and even with your proposed changes it would not solve this. mine would solve this because as a tribe we could help defend agaisnt this aspect of the game. yous stated you can super stack one village. issue is im having 20 of my villages sabotaged at once. each village being massively sabotaged. whent he first wave came in i couldnt do anything and even if the success rate was lowered i would still be taking a massive blow and all they have to do is time spy attack well enough and my villages are completely vulnerable and my tribe cant do anything but watch me drop in points. the only thing i can do is try to noble their high point villages faster than they sabotage the new villages i take. with my proposed abaility to stack i could get support from my tribe mates in the forum of spies. but that leaves those players vulnerable as well as unable to counter sabotage. if the enemy knows this they could then switch and absolutely devastate the supporting tribe member. it doesnt give advantage to the defender except maybe in mid game. but early game you would have to have a lvl 15 tavern to support with spies which you wont see people having enough lvl 15 taverns to make a difference until mid game.

you are thinking in early game terms and trying to apply it to late game. but early and late game are two different things and have many different factors involved with them. Im thinking about facing a tribe with thousands of villages. not a single player. also there is no way to see incoming spy attacks so there is no way to stack against an initial wave of spies and sabotages. there are many factors you are ignoring in your assessment that i have already analyzed.
 

DeletedUser924

Guest
The thing you are missing is with my proposal an empty village of spies would no longer guarantee a sabotage attack is successful. right now once the spies are gone its open season with my proposal spying buildings is not changed but less than 1/3 of sabotage would work regardless of defending spies. as I posted in the last major topic. and btw I had 40 villages all thieves guild before i quit experior. on EN Bastille i am 50:50 thieves and Teutonic, so true I've not been hit by it but I've hit enough people with it to know exactly what you are going through. One more thing I don't think in terms of early game period. i'm always focused on mid-late to end game phase,
 

DeletedUser940

Guest
a proposal of making it so sabotage doesnt work all the time does help with some of the stress put on a player but as i stated sabotage feature would still be a very offensive heavy tool. when being attacked by it from a tribe it is tribe vs player not tribe vs tribe. my proposal makes it tribe vs tribe yours keep it as a tool that can be tribe vs tribe. say all your villages are sabotage villages and you attack a player half your size in a tribe. and using your solution the first 5 attacks are meant to destroy the spies. then the next 35 attacks are for sabotaging so only 11-12 attacks sabotage now you can try and continue sabotaging but it isnt that devastating. you cant cripple a village until you reach around 100 villages with sabotage so sabotage becomes a mute tool although say its a 50% success rate with no defending spies, well now 17-18 succeed. that is a bit better and now you can keep it up every 6 hours and in a few days you takeout one village. but was it all that effective to open up with. is it even worth it to cripple that one church village. by the time you take out the church he has two more up. that makes sabotage almost useless to use now. what strategic value can it give you to try and take out a key village using it if you cant use it in the oppening strike...

my proposal the first three attacks get rid of the spies and then next 37 sabotage devastating that village.with the openning strike. i cripple that one village which if its a church village i can switfly move in and try to take that province. however now that players tribe can support him with troops and spies so i have a smaller chance of success. now if i have a tribe behind me i can have join strikes on multiple provinces for a surprise attack but again after that first attack sabotage might not work well against an organized tribe that can defend its members.

Your idea is sound as they can constantly mess with the numbers until they get something good issue is i feel those numbers would need to be differnet in early mid and late game. mid game you might need a 75% success rate in order to make sabotage worth it. late game you might need 50 % to make it not over powered. my solution makes it so mid game you can try to stack your own villages but you leave others open and that's a gamble but with a tribe you can get help from your tribe. you seem to think my solution gives to much power to the defender when it doesnt. this game is about a tribe working together and using effective strategy. allowing for spy supporting allows for such a thing. i can strategically make them pull their spies from one province to another and then hit the other province hard as its now open for sabotage season.
 
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