On the receiving end of extreme pay to win - my report

[DeletedUser2103]

Hello all,

I am posting here to get some feedback and the player views on my experience being on the receiving end of an extreme pay to win player. This all happened in the last week on world EN5. My original thread is here on the EN forums: http://forum.en.tribalwars2.com/for...ussions/15004-this-p2w-model-is-so-unbalanced

I am posting here also because I know this beta forum is more active with innogames developers and staff, as well as more player activity, than the EN forums.


Firstly I'd like to state that I know Innogames has to make money. Myself, I would have liked to spend something on this game because I like the concept, graphics are nice, mobile app is great and quite polished. However, when faced with the extreme pay to win players that I have come up against on every world I've started on so far, there is no way I can spend anything here. The reason for that is quite simple - I can never spend enough to compete with the extreme spenders and I will not waste my money building up a city that can be snatched away by someone spending hundreds and hundreds of pounds and gaining what I see as an extremely unfair advantage.


So on to my recent experience. I started on EN5 approx 6/7 days ago now. This was the first world that I had the android app available on from the outset, so I was able to login from my mobile whilst at work and keep extremely active. My building queues and troop queues were full 24/7 and I never ran out of resources once. I could not have built any faster.

From the outset, there was a player next to me whose city was doubling in score daily. He was double my points after beginners protection ended. I had built an 800 point city in that time, his was almost 1600 points. I would wake up in the morning and he'd added 300 or more points overnight.

I had also built the following troops: 500 spears, 500 swords, 204 archers, 90 axes, 25 lc, 5 ma, 1 pally with equiped weapon. Plus I had my wall up to 16. Like I said, 24/7 queues so it could not have been done faster by anyone without spending.


The first attack came early Monday night. I was hit with 562 spears, 850 axes, 195 LC, 75 MA, 90 rams, 9 cats, 1 pally. I dodged this because I only had my swords and archers in my village as alot of my troops were farming at the time. The battle calculator available online shows I'd have lost all my defense against this anyway. My wall got knocked down from level 16 to level 6 here, by just 90 rams.

The second attack came while I was asleep. I left my defense in my village as it had all returned from farming, so I had what I listed above plus I had rebuilt my wall to level 8 by the time the attack came. I got hit with 639 spears, 1112 axes, 195 lc, 75 ma, 90 rams, 30 cats, 1 pally. Lost all troops of course, wall reduced to zero and he lost about 40% of troops.

My spying on him showed he also has over 600 swords and over 400 archers in his village also.


There is absolutely nothing I could have done against this. I started on the rim this time, have built as fast as I could have done, and players around me are all doing about as well as I was, or less. I wasn't in a tribe yet (remember this is only 5 or 6 days from starting on the world, at the rim also not in the centre). If I was in a tribe I may have got a few spears or swords off those close to me but against that paid for firepower it would not have made a difference. Mr big spender's troops counts will probably be fully recovered in a couple of days as he can just keep rerolling until the legendary deals come up on axes.

I may have been up against a rare case here of someone who has got more money than sense - perhaps Inno's perfect customer. But fundamentally there is a problem because I will never spend any money in these totally unfair circumstances.


Genuinely I would love to see an innogames response to this and whether they truly consider this level of a wipe out to to be fairly balanced. I want to know what Innogames think of me as a potential customer and whether they place any value whatsoever on 'normal' players like me (who would have spent something in fair circumstances), or are we just content to them so mr big spender can feel satisfied with his hundreds of pounds of spending.


I would like to point out that I have read Innogame's statement on its pay model. There are some key points I'd like to quote from it:

As we created and developed the game, we spent a lot of time considering how best to implement premium features in ways that would be beneficial to the players but would not cause such an imbalance that those who did not spend money would be unable to compete.

Quite clearly, I was unable to compete in this situation. Quite clearly there is a very extreme imbalance here. I do not believe any player could have competed against this, given only 5 days into the world and on the rim where tribe support would be lacking.

In all the feedback we have received so far, I think one aspect is worth mentioning. The crown options we offer allow everyone to play for free, on a very polished (and soon to be) cross platform game. This means that while a minority can boost their game play a bit,...

I think your definition of 'a bit' is wildly different to mine unfortunately. Crowns allow pretty much unlimited boosts to players willing to spend ALOT of their money on them. Simply look at the amount of troops that this player amassed in only 5/6 days to see that this is far from 'a bit' of an advantage.


To be honest with you I'm kind of sitting here dumbfounded at the moment. A week of solid activity building up a strong city all wasted by nothing more than a credit card player who was willing to throw in huge amounts of cash. I can genuinely promise that if you opened a world with no P2W features but a £10 or so joining fee I would play on it. I cannot and will not play a game of no limit poker with a player who for all I know could be a millionnaire. Why should I even bother playing another world now when the same thing will happen again most likely. Why should I waste my time building up a city and troops for it to be lost in a totally unfair and biased fight.


I would appreciate the courtesy of a response from an Innogames representative on these points I have raised (not some blanket statement please), and I would appreciate the views of other players also.

Regards
Dan

 

[DeletedUser2103]

Overwhelming response guys, thanks .

Does no-one have an opinion? Am I right? Am I wrong? Am I expecting too much? Is it fair that spending hundreds gets you these kinds of advantages? Did I just get unlucky to land next to some kind of millionnaire freak? Has everyone just turned to apathy regarding these features now? Has everyone left the game?

 

[DeletedUser40]

While i would appreciate other players reviews as it gives more feedback on the actual topic, instead of questioning the actual points from us. But here goes anyway.

Genuinely I would love to see an innogames response to this and whether they truly consider this level of a wipe out to to be fairly balanced. I want to know what Innogames think of me as a potential customer and whether they place any value whatsoever on 'normal' players like me (who would have spent something in fair circumstances), or are we just content to them so mr big spender can feel satisfied with his hundreds of pounds of spending.

As you mentioned yourself, you were up against a rare case. Actually the amount of players spending these amounts of crowns is very, very rare. It's quite not even worth mentioning in numbers. But of course they do exist in the game, and they will have to placed with the rest of the players.

But it's quite clear that a partially active account (not referring to you, but general example) will of course struggle to keep up.

The difference in pay vs. non-pay in the early game is more visible, as early points / troops are important to grow. But we are still monitoring this process closely and have already made some tweaks on the spending on buildings early in the game.

We are constantly getting numbers and discussing our payment model, trying to balance it properly.
There will however always be cases, where a premium player will overhaul a non-premium player. But it is not impossible to keep up with a premium player in the long run.

Does no-one have an opinion? Am I right? Am I wrong? Am I expecting too much? Is it fair that spending hundreds gets you these kinds of advantages? Did I just get unlucky to land next to some kind of millionnaire freak? Has everyone just turned to apathy regarding these features now? Has everyone left the game?

If i may add my own personal opinion.
From my own experience as playing with premium and without; I really do find our payment model a great new addition, as you only pay for what you need, instead of bundled packages, where you don't need half of it. You can buy what you need, when you need it. Previously you paid for a lot of features that you didn't always used. With our current model, it's more open for everyone. It's not only heavy payers that can get advantages from this.

I wouldn't say that you are right or wrong though, you were "just" unlucky, which will happen - and can happen even without premium involved.


Hoped it cleared it up or helped understanding!

 

[DeletedUser2103]

Thanks for the reply LiamAird. It is a shame that some of the player base does not have an opinion on it.

I would like to comment on one particular point you make:

From my own experience as playing with premium and without; I really do find our payment model a great new addition, as you only pay for what you need, instead of bundled packages, where you don't need half of it. You can buy what you need, when you need it. Previously you paid for a lot of features that you didn't always used. With our current model, it's more open for everyone. It's not only heavy payers that can get advantages from this.

I think that while in principle I agree with you, the problem is that there is no upper limit so if you are on the recieving end of an extreme spender like I was, there's nothing you can do about it. Even if I'd have spent money myself I wouldn't have kept up because I would never have spent enough. With the previous system it was at least self limiting. I also feel that each microtransaction on its own doesn't gain you much at all and costs a not insignificant amount. To gain any long term benefit you have to actually undertake quite a few microtransactions which builds up probably more cost than the old system in the long run.

I would also like to refer you to my thread in the EN forum where I have made a thorough suggestion to introduce a subscription world. http://forum.en.tribalwars2.com/for...a-trial-genuine-request-please-take-seriously

Is it worth me duplicating this thread here also?

 

[DeletedUser40]

I think that while in principle I agree with you, the problem is that there is no upper limit so if you are on the recieving end of an extreme spender like I was, there's nothing you can do about it. Even if I'd have spent money myself I wouldn't have kept up because I would never have spent enough. With the previous system it was at least self limiting. I also feel that each microtransaction on its own doesn't gain you much at all and costs a not insignificant amount. To gain any long term benefit you have to actually undertake quite a few microtransactions which builds up probably more cost than the old system in the long run.

I can understand where you are coming from, when being on the receiving end of this - and it is a valid suggestion. Unfortunately, it not common practice to limit your customers from buying items from the company. But i will suggest it as the idea itself is valid and understandable.

Is it worth me duplicating this thread here also?

If it was suggested on another server, i would already be handled. It would therefore not be ideal to share it again, as it would be handled again - with the same result.

 

[DeletedUser2103]

If it was suggested on another server, i would already be handled. It would therefore not be ideal to share it again, as it would be handled again - with the same result.

LiamAird, thanks for this, however this may be a useful place to point out that I don't feel that suggestions made on the EN forums are well handled. The suggestion I made in my link has not received a response yet and I do not know if its gone anywhere.

 

[DeletedUser955]

Some Inno games are fairer than others. I can't accurately tell you how "fair" tribal wars is, but I can assure you that there are people who spend lots of money on this game, and I'm sure that most (if not all) of the top 10 are big spenders. This wasn't always the case, but with other Inno games (grepolis, for example), it's gotten that way, and from what you've said, I imagine TW2 is very similar. However, that's just the way the game is. Either dont play, or learn to work with it. In this case, either you can start spending, or you can join the rim. You'll still find spenders on the rim, but the majority will be simmers, so as long as you play aggressively and smart, you can survive. Good luck on the subscription idea, but it's been suggested for other Inno games before, and they've never really done anything like it (except for one world in Grepolis, which was x50 speed, but that only lasted for a few days).

 

[DeletedUser2103]

Thanks for the reply HocusPocus. I don't see why Inno can't cater for different types of players. I would be willing to play a subscription world as would others because it would rely more on the skill and put everyone on a level playing field. Some people like the P2W model and thats fine, they can carry on on those worlds. 50x speed is also a joke and means that you have to treat the game like a full time job. That is certainly not what I'm looking for. The game could sensibly be made 2x/3x faster and this would be perfect.

 

[DeletedUser40]

LiamAird, thanks for this, however this may be a useful place to point out that I don't feel that suggestions made on the EN forums are well handled. The suggestion I made in my link has not received a response yet and I do not know if its gone anywhere.

Your idea was talked about internally and suggested.
If i am not mistaken it was rejected, which were marked in the thread.

But a subscription world is not something that is planned for now or any time soon.
I can't see it'll never come, but as the plans are now, there is no time for this idea.

 

[DeletedUser2507]

I'd like to suggest to limit p2w gameplay. I think there should be deleted possibility to buy army for coins because it is game breaker. You can also limit possibility to build building in 1 sec with coins - you could change it.

However give people possiblity to earn coins for watching ads, doing free quiz etc.

Edit:

And aslo I want to add my 2 cents about earning coins. Well as you can see we already have option to earn coins but in most cases it is based on phone number actions. Many people afraid it because you could get many paid messages and generally sometimes big spam.

To avoid these situations devs can introduce something similar to PPA but based on videos ads, click ads or other simple actions which give us some coins + devs earn some cash too.

There could be also some quests based on game process and activities - players will be able to earn coins as reward or... instead of coins give officers/medic/deceiver packs and all these helpers etc.

Of course it should be limited daily as well.

 

[DeletedUser2520]

While i would appreciate other players reviews as it gives more feedback on the actual topic, instead of questioning the actual points from us. But here goes anyway.



As you mentioned yourself, you were up against a rare case. Actually the amount of players spending these amounts of crowns is very, very rare. It's quite not even worth mentioning in numbers. But of course they do exist in the game, and they will have to placed with the rest of the players.

But it's quite clear that a partially active account (not referring to you, but general example) will of course struggle to keep up.

The difference in pay vs. non-pay in the early game is more visible, as early points / troops are important to grow. But we are still monitoring this process closely and have already made some tweaks on the spending on buildings early in the game.

We are constantly getting numbers and discussing our payment model, trying to balance it properly.
There will however always be cases, where a premium player will overhaul a non-premium player. But it is not impossible to keep up with a premium player in the long run.



If i may add my own personal opinion.
From my own experience as playing with premium and without; I really do find our payment model a great new addition, as you only pay for what you need, instead of bundled packages, where you don't need half of it. You can buy what you need, when you need it. Previously you paid for a lot of features that you didn't always used. With our current model, it's more open for everyone. It's not only heavy payers that can get advantages from this.

I wouldn't say that you are right or wrong though, you were "just" unlucky, which will happen - and can happen even without premium involved.


Hoped it cleared it up or helped understanding!

this is such a ridiculous excuse - "only a little players pay for premium"....we will be awaiting to read your companies yearly reports ;-)
i know that i have spent thousands and never ruled a world. everytime one switches world or language every single flag had to be bought again
every paladin item was lost, paldain items characteristics changed
please be at least honest to state that tw2 is the most expensive game ever. very nice animated indeed, very interesting for kids aged under 10yrs.
every noob can buy here features you would need to be a pro to achieve them

 

[Vexweaver]

i know this post is very old and the original writer will most likely never read this. however he did ask for opinions so here is mine. i understand he lost his village and is angry or whatever. however alot of things he wrote arent necessarily true. for starters u dont know how much or how little your nobler spent on the game. i dont spend tons on the game, personally, but starting out i spend a few dollars to get those day 1 farm troops and a few build slots. just doing that helps a ton and only cost a lil entertainment money. troop building snowballs from there. secondly you state no one could have done any better just because u were very active. simply put that most likely isnt the case. for example you play 24/7 make troops 24/7 but u have a level 1 barrack and your nobler was using a level 20 barrack by time protection dropped. in that case he made more troops thus played better negating any other cash advantage. this game is free for everyone to play and thats awesome. but it is paid for by the non free to play players which is most likely the minority in the game. those players my self included wont pay for no advantage to game play items. at the very least i can say i would very much not pay for that. something like a cosmetic override for my village for instance. to answer your question why would u play when u could lose your entire village, thats the main reason to play. it adds a level of danger and excitement to the game that makes it entertaining. all that being said let me offer some advice for what you could have done as a free to play player that most likely would have saved you. as active as you were day 3 or 4 or sometime before protection drops u pull up the tribe list look at the top 5 tribes and find one that suits you and apply. with your points and troop count im sure you could have joined a substantial prescence on the game world. then when your neighbor came at you, your tribe could help, or just join your neighbors tribe. my opinion is the pay model is very well atm, again i dont spend tons of cash,just a few dollars to show appreciation for the game. what would i like to see? well it may never happen but a way to get build slots for all my villages in one buy, of course that cuts out repeat customers so i understand if that never happens. good luck and dont cry if u see me across the battlefield from you. Vex

 

[DeletedUser924]

this is such a ridiculous excuse - "only a little players pay for premium"....we will be awaiting to read your companies yearly reports ;-)
i know that i have spent thousands and never ruled a world. everytime one switches world or language every single flag had to be bought again
every paladin item was lost, paldain items characteristics changed
please be at least honest to state that tw2 is the most expensive game ever. very nice animated indeed, very interesting for kids aged under 10yrs.
every noob can buy here features you would need to be a pro to achieve them

An you have just proved my point people like you spend tons of money up front and never make it to end game. And it is not fair to say that TW2 is the most expensive game ever. And if you really want to say that you must prove it with facts otherwise the input isn't even worth the mouth it came out of. to date I have spent absolutely nothing on this game because I have no money to spend. Side point I don't even have the money to buy food half the time so how could i pay for a game? Back to topic i am currently rank 5 and was rank 3 for a bit. I will soon be back up to rank 4. now tell me how you all are paying thousands and still lower rank and size that someone like me who hasn't spent a single cent on this game? You spend thousands on this game and i'd be lucky just to have a thousand dollars in a year. Yet I've won 4 worlds on TW1 and we'll just have to see what I can accomplish here. On TW1 I''ve spent a grand total of 79.99 for PP in my career starting back in 2006. Thats combined with my 2 mil account, my 7 mil account, my 20 mill account and various others too.

In short paying doesn't mean winning! playing long term bidding your time and rebuilding after short-term losses yes you can be rimmed multiple times with bad starts before you get the right start and end up winning the game.