Advice on how to break a defense

neagu

New Member
Hello!
i was wondering if you guys have any suggestions on what the actual force that i would need to break this defense.
4000 spears
3000 spears
1500 archers
480 heavy cav
1 paladin
5 beserkers
8 trebuche
he has a wall lvl 20 and when i attack i attack at 84 % combat strengh...idk why

I was thinking 3000 swords 800 cav 600 archer cav 50 beserkers and 120 h cav plus 300 catapult but i dont think its enough.... suggestions?

Thank you
 

Yatogami

New Member
84% fighting strength suggests you are more than 4x the size of your target.

Your mix of offense and defense would likely require at least 5 or so of those builds to clear that one defense, possibly even 10.

You would need a full nuke to do it, and even then you might not get the full clear.
Along the lines of 3000 axes, 1000 light cav, 2000 mounted archer 250 rams with 250 berserkers.
 

seecretlare

Knight
due to the heavy spears and archers (you only need 5% archers in your villages if that. i would go with 10000 axe 300 rams and 1000 bezerkers. on of the longer nukes to make but it could get through that in one or two hits with ease, do not mix axe lc and Ma it just isnt good. have a variety of nukes at hand for any occasion. i use 5 different types of nukes. MA zerker, Ma LC, axe Zerker and the traditional axe LC. with a specialty nuke of zerker only. some friends of mine have noted having a LC only nuke is useful as well. but don't do a axe lc ma ram and zerker nuke. overall its just too weak. we tested this out countless times.
 
I would not go with a axe nuke because I doubt he broke apart 7000 spears into two groups so we have 4000 spears and 3000 swords. Due to the low number of archers i would go with Yato's nuks. And spear are weakest against archers not axe so again i would go with Yato's nuke. And what in the world are you telling people not to mix axes with LC and MA. Now i really have to question how well you know this game because a standard axe nuke is 6K axe 1300 lc 1500 MA and 250 rams. or there abouts. building a nuke thats all axe then one thats all LC and then one thats all MA is just stupid as you force 100% of the defending troops into one battle group. Divide and conquer not group them all together push them in a corner and see what happens.
 

gencyde1

New Member
Why not make 2 types then? maybe preferably with infantry-cavalry. Axes-MA, Axes-LC, MA-zerkers,LC-zerkers. I am about to test out the all LC and all MA nuke ("exotic" nukes like these works best against infantry stacks, not so well on all HC one) and see what happens there. Axes-zerkers are ok - but takes a million years to make.
 
Gencyde don't get me wrong i have 5 types of nukes. But don't tell me that a good nuke can't have axe and cav because it can. I have one 15K axe 500 ram and 250 cat. I have some that are pure MA and rams and cats, ditto with LC. then i have 6K axe 1000 Cav and the rest are MA leaving of course the 250 rams and the 50 cats. So yes i have different nukes for different D builds but axe and cav do work together as long as you don't use just 2500 axe. at that point you've put so little farm space in infantry unless you have 1000 zerks you are just hurting your overall power.
Now for your test let me tell you. All MA nukes work best against spears and swords, and HC heavy D. HC have the same archer D as swords do so theres no change there. all cav nukes work best against swords, archers and once again HC. about the only thing HC is good for is speed and infatr D. when it comes to cav d and archer D thre are better alternatives. Now you can see why MA are the most powerful unit since their only counter is archers.
to do some math for you.

Archer D for 6 farm space
Spear 60
Sword 180
Archer 360
HC 180

Inf D per 6 farm space
Spear 150
Sword 330
Archer 60
HC 200

Cav D per 6 farm space
Spear 270
Sword 30
Archer 180
HC 160

As you See HC have no greater advantage for power. But swodrs slow down support significantly and for long ranger support it can be life or death for the speed. HC cut the travel time of D in half so its worth losing the 130 Inf D for the time. Now if you know the enemy uses archer nukes then spending the time for the archers is a must. because they gain 180 D on the HC. Spears gain you less for cav D than the swords did for inf. Now if you know you have a heavy stack of HC to clear the best bet is an all cav nuke as that will kill the most of the HC. This is the reason the standard non archer world D was spears and HC now the best D would be Archers HC and a few spears. Archers still gain you more cav D than your HC and the spears supplement it thus covering you on all bases. Hope this rundown has helped you with your tests on types of nukes and what D's they are good for.
 

TheBlackOne

Knight
Guys you are unreasonable, I would attack with 4000 MA wit a Paladin with the MA weapon :)
Also you start to lose morale once you are 4.5 or more bigger than your opponent (your points> 4.5x your target's points), if you got 84% Morale that means that you are 5 times bigger or something like that.
Also if that i's not his Chappel/Church village, I would destroy the Chappel/Church village first, to fight him at 200% strenght.
 

WhiteFang5

New Member
Given you have a church/chapel (level 1), he has a church/chapel (level 1) the following unit build (of 20k provisions) will lead to victory with the fastest rebuild time for your lost units:



If you don't like berserkers due to their cost, an alternative (non-berserker) build would be:



PLEASE NOTE: the calculatio of the wall damaging isn't 100% correct and trebuchets are not taken into account for pre-battle ram destruction (if that even exists?) either. There might be a difference on how much damage the wall gets which might affect the actual result (and thus losses & rebuild time)

P.S. The Paladin uses a Morning Star level 1 as it brings more power to rams (which is in the current formulas for wall destruction calculation is assumed to boost rams to deal more damage to the wall). It is also assumed that the enemy paladin uses a weapon that doesn't benefit any of the defending units.
 

WhiteFang5

New Member
For fun I simulated Yatogami's build and it takes far long to rebuild the lost units:



Please note that the wall damaging formula isn't 100% correct yet.

And TheBlackOne's bold build would even result in a loss (using composite bow level 1)



TheBlackOne's build does come out faster to rebuild, but requires the opponents chapel/church to be gone for that province. Getting rid of the church is still easy, but the chapel is a different story and if the chapel is in the target village, it's impossible to get it out before attacking.



HOW EVER, when applying the removed chapel/church to the optimal build my simulator proposes, we'd see the following results:



And without berserkers:


Still far more efficient according to my simulations ;)

Once more, please note that the wall damaging formula isn't 100% accurate in any of the shown battle results.
 
You are wrong if the chapel is in there you noble it first then it is gone. Sure you can send 800 cats on a church or 50 sabotage runs but why do that hen you can noble it. Second the black one has a level 3 composite bow not a level one. Third i don't know how you got these simulations but the Archer D is so much lower than the infantry D and the Cavalry D so i don't know how you can say it would lose where a cav nuke wouldn't. keep in mind with the simulators are not always accurate. next point all your nukes have rams and the MA one didn't that is the reason you get lower results for the others. now try 77 rams to it. because with the optimal village build you can get slightly more than 77 rams with a nuke of 4000 MA. that will even the odds slightly.
 

WhiteFang5

New Member
Samuri 4 life;n28262 said:
You are wrong if the chapel is in there you noble it first then it is gone. Sure you can send 800 cats on a church or 50 sabotage runs but why do that hen you can noble it. Second the black one has a level 3 composite bow not a level one. Third i don't know how you got these simulations but the Archer D is so much lower than the infantry D and the Cavalry D so i don't know how you can say it would lose where a cav nuke wouldn't. keep in mind with the simulators are not always accurate. next point all your nukes have rams and the MA one didn't that is the reason you get lower results for the others. now try 77 rams to it. because with the optimal village build you can get slightly more than 77 rams with a nuke of 4000 MA. that will even the odds slightly.
chapel/church: true, if it's in ANOTHER village yeah, noble it if it's empty ofc... but it require more effort than just building/having a nuke ready-to-go.

I currently do not have the off & def % increase for composite bow level 2 or 3. I have some of the weapons, but not all as it's not even mentioned in the wiki pages and nowhere else to be found besides in-game and having the respective weapon level. If you'd pass me the values, i'll add them and re-simulate with those values.

Regarding the def values, I use the values as-shown in-game and in the wiki pages and the calculation as explained in the basic battle video of innogames. The units lost formula is no in that video and guesses have been made by players of the game and the one I currently have and use is accurate to the number with the exception when using rams due to the wall damaging formula not being 100% accurate (1 wall level makes a "huge" difference in unit losses and battle calculations).
 
Okay. i'll post the percentages for the level 3 here but if you want others mail me i have almost every item level 3. oops i only have the level 2 composite bow so you'll have to wait for the level 3. but i do figure it on this factor almost all go up by double. the level 2 bow is 10% D 20% O so level three should be 20% D 40% O but it may be that it just goes 15% 25% i'll check back later.
 

TheBlackOne

Knight
I know what the calculator says about this, it's just that I trust my experience, which tells me that I had huge success with LC and MA only... You may use what you like, I like to be special anyway XD
 

Yatogami

New Member
WhiteFang5;n28263 said:
Regarding the def values, I use the values as-shown in-game and in the wiki pages and the calculation as explained in the basic battle video of innogames. The units lost formula is no in that video and guesses have been made by players of the game and the one I currently have and use is accurate to the number with the exception when using rams due to the wall damaging formula not being 100% accurate (1 wall level makes a "huge" difference in unit losses and battle calculations).
It has been pointed out to us that damaging the wall has no effect on the current battle, only consecutive battles before wall is rebuilt. So the defense would still fight at 200% in the first strike.
Suggests why rams throw the calculation off because the wall works like a wall in this version of the game.
 

WhiteFang5

New Member
It has been pointed out to us that damaging the wall has no effect on the current battle, only consecutive battles before wall is rebuilt. So the defense would still fight at 200% in the first strike.
Suggests why rams throw the calculation off because the wall works like a wall in this version of the game.
The wiki states:
The Ram is used for tearing down the enemy Wall. This is done twice during a battle. The first ram attack will be executed before the battle starts and lowers the defense bonus of the defender if successful. The second attack is done after the battle with the surviving rams.
Therefore the pre-battle ramming lowers the wall level (which results in a different outcome for the wall bonus formula) but is not the final wall level. It only determines at which level the wall bonus would be. In TW1 this was limited to drop max 50% of the wall, thus a wall level 20 could only be downed to level 10 - and this is what my formula also is using.

Then the battle would commence and the wall bonus of the "downed" wall would be used (as stated by the wiki). After the battle (in which the rams also participate) a number of rams remain, and depending on who wins the remaining or all rams would ram again to determine how much the wall level would actually drop.
In that way it is possible that during the fight the wall was level 10 (in theory) but not enough rams survive and it is only dropped to level 15 (just an example value).

As the number of remaining rams depend on the defensive value, in which the wall bonus is factored in, the formula pre-battle is something that needs to be known in order to receive correct losses. (this is where my formula fails or comes short as it's based on TW1's formula)
And secondly you'd need to know the formula for post-battle ramming, both formulas, the formula used when the attack wins, and the one used when the defender wins. Again, for those formulas I use the TW1 version.
With all 3 formulas based on TW1 known facts, it comes close to the actual but is off in certain situations (very strange).

The one thing I didn't talk about here are trebuchets, which is totally new and no knowledge can be drawn from TW1. There is a formula which determines how many rams are killed by trebs pre-battle. Those rams are simply destroyed and do not participate in the pre or post battle ramming at all (drawn from own TW2 experience). That formula is totally unknown to me and I've many numerous attempts to figure it out based on reported I found on the forums and received in-game involving trebuchets and rams. Unfortunately I have nothing that comes close so far.